Hi @anon49809275 we have communicated about this via Direct Message and to everyone in this thread. TrustedHousesitters policy is that owners must reveal any video/audio monitoring equipment, internal and external in their listing, if they omit in their listing they need to advise sitters before confirming an agreement (according to the T&C’s every member agrees to when they sign up to TrustedHousesitters)
If a sitter becomes aware when on a sit and they were not told prior to agreeing the sit they need to communicate with the owner and Membership Services.
Regarding the law in the UK or elsewhere @carpediem this is complex and varies widely.
We are certain that the use of this technology by owners will not be to monitor sitters but to protect their property, or pet owners to monitor pets when they are home alone.
What is important is that owners are transparent about its use so that sitters are aware and that discussions are open and honest regarding the use and application.
@Angela_L yes lets hope that you are correct that the use of this technology is not to monitor sitters and I am sure that in most cases that is correct; please dont take offence at this but I am sure that in some cases that is not so and I am sure you appreciate the depth of feeling that some sitters (myself included) have on this issue. Just taking the UK situation regarding the law around use of cameras in a home, are you able to point those with concern to that information or should I look that up and provide it on the forum? Also can you answer the other part of my question which was has any HO ever had their membership cancelled for use of undeclared cameras or have their ever been any suspensions as a result. Obviously I am not asking for details just some comment on this and I am sure other sitters would be interested also. Please dont misunderstand that I am trying to ‘rock the boat’ as that is not my intention. The forum exists as you say for HOs and sitters to have discussion and raise points of common interest and I hope THS takes my persistence with this issue in good faith as it is offered. Thanks.
On the question regarding any formal complaints raised on this matter, to my knowledge there are none however I would need to confirm this with our Head of Membership Services.
@Angela_L thanks for providing this Angela and I will have a look at it this morning and summarise anything that might be of interest to both sitters and HOs and perhaps you can repost it where it will get viewed to best effect along with the link to both the full UK Governmant information and the additional Blake Fire and Security information. As you say its a complex issue and the legal framework and level of protection for sitters may be different in a global context.
Hi @carpediem all posts/comments relating to this subject need to stay in this topic and conversation thread, also the category is all member focussed. Thank you.
@Angela_L has provided some really useful links in understanding the rights of HOs and sitters around this complex issue. I will summarise the main points in a seperate post but here are the links: Information Commisioners Office (ICO) and Blake Fire and Security Systems. Please note this only applies to the UK situation. There are lots of other sites and they all say pretty much the same thing with regard to the rights for sitters (not many I’m afraid!) under the Data Protection Act and General Data Protection Regulations. Its worth listing some of the comments made on this issue before moving on: @Colin mentions that a HO who does not trust a sitter, should perhaps take their pets to an outside agency @1gypsygurl gypsygurl listed some useful links to the issue @Angela_L in conversation with @Snowbird mentioned raising the profile of this issue by including a use of camera checkbox in the listing/WG and also asked @Mary-Kay to reference @dlwalsh2 (who first raised this issue) and her experience of 2 different HOs using undisclosed cameras. I am interested to know Angela were these HOs suspended? @Itchyfeet mentions that the ‘Fing’ app does not work very well in detectiing hidden cameras @LTD supports that and says the app does not have great reviews @Mary-Kay posted a very useful Air BnB policy that could ‘beef up’ the existing THS policy around this issue.
@Angela_L and anybody else following this issue. First of all Angela thanks for sending the links and I have noted that they only apply to the UK. To summarise for anybody interested and this might go to 2 posts as there is alot of detail:
The Information Commissioners Office (ICO) regulates/enforces the General Data Protection Regulations (GDPR) and the Data Protection Act (2018)
The GDPR and DPA DO NOT apply where use of CCTV is contained solely on the HOs property. This means a sitter has limited protection within that.
The ICO gives a useful checklist ‘guidance on use of domestic CCTV’ and I would urge HOs especially to read this. Ask yourself the question ‘Do i really need CCTV and are there other better and cheaper ways to protect my property?’ The ICO suggest better lighting, better locks, alarm systems etc and a sitter would welcome the use of these.
The ICO states that where CCTV is used audio recording (which is highly invasive) should be disabled.
Individuals have the right under ‘Subject Access Requests’ (SARs) to access the data a HO has of them; please see the detail.
‘Domestic CCTV system’ within the scope of ICO includes use of doorbell cameras
Uploading/streaming of images publicly is in most cases not justifiable.
Rules between use of ‘overt’ and ‘covert’ cameras differ
A ’ covert’ camera is one hidden or disguised
A HO according to Blake can ‘place as many secret cameras as they like-as long as they are ONLY capturing footage of their personal, family or house-hold affairs’ and if this is the case it calls into question what rights a sitter might have to reasonable privacy; bearing in mind that Blake is in the business of selling this equipment!
They go on to say that use of cameras that capture images of child minders and cleaners (and I would add trades people) might infringe ‘employee rights’. To my mind this is a tricky one for sitters as we are not employees receiving a wage so the relationship is not formalised within the law. Would you like to comment on that Angela?
Finally can I direct HOs to a useful Code of Practice (2013) issued by the Home Office: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk ‘Guiding Principles’ pg 10-11
@Angela_L I’ve just logged out of my Dashboard with the purpose of reading all information available to prospective members. As far as I can see, a prospective member cannot read the T&C’s before signing up so does not know what they are agreeing to. Therefore they would not know about the security systems/interior camera issue that this thread is discussing. I wonder how many members have actually read the T&C’s. I know I certainly didn’t when I first joined! May I suggest they become available to prospective members when they are checking out whether to join THS or not.
As with any concern, complaint or dispute a member needs to request for a formal investigation by Membership Services, this is done via email and once received a team member will be appointed to carry this out, we would need to established if a formal complaint was made.
These matters are taken seriously, addressed on a case by case basis and investigated fully to establish the facts in a fair, unbiased, thorough and confidential manner.
@Angela_L yes i understand that Angela and I really want to move on from this now and just focus on posting some photos of animals and showing an interest in lighter topics but can you please say if what you are outlining has ever happened or do sitters not make a formal complaint around privacy being breached. I really would like to know without any detail if a HO has ever been suspended or membership cancelled for use of cameras without permission? It is a reasonable request i think and I really do want to let this go. You said you would find out. Thanks and have a great day.
Exactly. I had a sit where I discovered late in the stay that I’d been on camera the entire time. I was making dinner one night and had a feeling I was being watched. I looked up and saw a red light. There was a Nest camera hidden on the top of a large piece of furniture. I downloaded the Spy app to determine where other cameras were…and there was one in the hallway that I used to go back and forth from bedroom to bathroom…
By the way, yes I did call THS about it (after determining that recording someone without their knowledge is illegal in the state of Oregon) but “talk to the homeowner” was the all I got.
Hi @Katie could you please Direct Message me with the details of the sit and date of the call, if you can remember, as I have gone back through all of your communications with Membership Services since March 2018 and cannot locate this specific call.
Hi @Angela_L I reached out to Membership Services and shared with them the same information I have shared here: that I discovered internal cameras on the 2nd day of my sit. The homeowners never disclosed this which is a breach of THS policy and a breach of the sitter’s privacy.
According to Membership Services: They reached out to the homeowners to “raise their concerns and asked if I had taken photos of the cameras.” Unfortunately, I did not take photos, but moving forward I plan to do so should this issue arise again. Membership Services: “Without being made aware during the course of the sit and without proper evidence we cannot act according and can only provide a warning and monitor them to make sure if it does happen again they will be dealt with.” They are “still waiting to hear back from the homeowners and would keep me updated where concerned.”
So to anyone being recorded without their knowledge and finds/discovers internal cameras, take photos of them as this will constitute as being evidence to provide to Membership Services.
As a new member (sitter) of THS, I’ve been following this thread with great interest.
While doing some online research, I came across the following steps for Airbnb guests to follow if they discover an undeclared security camera in their vacation rental.
Has THS developed a similar list of steps for sitters to follow if they find undeclared cameras in a home @Angela_L. Would following the steps in this list meet the requirements for “proper evidence” as mentioned by @anon49809275 in post #91 of this thread?
Photograph the installed device.
Unplug or remove the suspect device.
If it’s something without a plug, like a stuffed animal, cover it up.
Take pictures of the removed device.
Document the situation with as many details as possible.
Contact the rental service immediately and be prepared to send them your photos and documentation. Airbnb guests should contact the Trust & Safety team who could offer new accommodations and open an investigation.
If you feel endangered, leave as soon as possible.
I have a Ring Doorbell in my home. It has different modes: Ring only and Motion activated.
So if someone approaches the door (delivers package etc … or trys to steal said package…) or goes thru the door, it will activate and record/notify the owner (if owner has set their notifications.)